Their story: RATI and Janek of Overlanders

Froggies Over The Fence must be still today my all time favourite ATARI ST megademo so that when Overlanders came back to life in 2021 with the huge FirST Love demo, I was happy? amazed? moved to tears? Hard to tell but their unexpected return proved worth the wait and since then I have been dreaming of putting up an interview with that duet of (twin) coders. Never too late, here it comes and kudos to them for sending back a huge and so interesting interview with loads of photos!

STS: Hi RATI and Janek, shall we start with the usual introduction? Who’s who, occupation, real life and so on.

RATI: Hi Seb, I’m Benoît, a 54-year-old living in Paris. I’m a proud father of two boys and one girl, and I absolutely adore my wife (truly, she’s amazing <3—haha). I love traveling the world with my family, hiking, and indulging in some coding whenever I get the chance. Janek and I are twins, and we both work as executives at a multinational IT company. I’m the Mainframe Modernization Leader for France — a title that might sound a bit dull at first, but trust me, it’s anything but boring! :D

Janek: My name is Hervé, and you might be able to guess my age from RATI’s response. I live in the city of Orléans, France, where I have the joy of being surrounded by the love and care of four wonderful women: my wife and three daughters. I have a deep passion for computer science; coding is pure enjoyment for me, no matter the project—whether it’s creating a demo, building a website, programming a microcontroller, developing a plug-in, or crafting a mod for a game. In the past five years, I’ve also discovered a true love for simracing, especially Assetto Corsa Competizione. And, of course, I enjoy traveling—after all, who doesn’t?

STS: What’s the story behind your nicknames?

Janek: “Silver” was inspired by a superhero comic book I read during my childhood, featuring the character Silver Surfer. When I started playing online in Half-Life, I adopted the pseudonym “Janek.” The name comes from Flesh and Blood, a novel by my favorite author, Graham Masterton. While it’s not his best work, I’ve always loved how “Janek” sounds in French, which is why I chose it.

RATI: Back in 1998, I was playing Half-Life with friends (including Janek) in a crew called FBN (Fragged By Newbies). The whole group was created as a light-hearted joke aimed at a well-known crew at the time called NBF (Natural Born Fraggers). One of their standout players went by the name DEICIDE (all caps), so I chose the nickname RATICIDE in response. Since everyone ended up calling me RATI, the name stuck. 

STS: Before serious things get started, I need to repeat how much I LOVE your latest demos. Maybe you know that Froggies Over The Fence is my all time favourite ST demo so that when FirST Love came out 28 years later I almost shed tears of joy!

RATI: Thank you so much! FOTF is truly a milestone demo for me as well, even though I wasn’t personally involved in its creation. Mr. Bee did an incredible job on the OVR segment, skillfully utilizing routines from legends like Ziggy Stardust (the god), Adso, Dim, and combining them with his own, to produce a spectacular demo. I’m thrilled that FL evoked emotions for you and helped revive the recognition and legacy of OVR.😊

Janek: There's no greater compliment you can give to a demoscener: creating a demo is all about evoking emotions. While a key motivation in retro computing is to explore and innovate, bringing fresh ideas to life, the true essence lies in how you craft and convey your message. Performance matters, but it's the articulation and emotional impact that truly resonate. Both FOTF and FL were built with this philosophy at their core.

Left to Right: Front: Mr Bee, Jess, RATI, Janek - Back: Ben, Adso 

STS: So both of you worked on the Lightning demo released back in 1991 and then you vanished. Can you tell me more about this? I guess that the usual good excuse popped in: studies, then work and family life.

RATI: Actually, what happened is that Stan Mercury invited us to join OVR in 1989 when we first met. At the time, however, we were keen on creating our own demo independently rather than joining an already well-established team. Additionally, being somewhat isolated in Orléans played a part in our decision. So, we agreed to join OVR after completing The Lightning Demo, which we finally released in 1991. Unfortunately, it was drastically lacking in design. I believe Equinox set the benchmark for well-designed demos during that era, especially the productions where Keops was involved. Once we joined OVR, we began developing several fast routines, including a line routine capable of drawing 29 diagonals back then — a number we later pushed to 36 in the 2016 version. However, as our studies demanded more of our time, we found ourselves overwhelmed and had to reprioritize. By that point, the scene was beginning to decline, and, ultimately, we never managed to release anything new. I had the chance to reconnect with Megadeth at Gemtos 2023 and got some news from Terence. Fun fact: Megadeth told me that age has really taken a toll on me. I guess time is doing its thing—haha! Hi Pascal 😀

 Left to Right: Crystar (later renamed himself as RATI when joining Overlanders) and Megadeth (who later created Prism) from Pendragons at Gemtos 2023

Janek: You're absolutely right. At the time, our studies took precedence, and we had to make some pivotal decisions—preparing for our future became the top priority. As RATI mentioned, the scene was becoming less active, signaling that it was time to transition into the next chapter of our lives. Looking back, I consider that period a golden era. We had the privilege of meeting so many talented individuals, traveling, and sharing a passion for something I truly regard as an art form. This art requires imagination, skill, and expertise across multiple disciplines: coding, graphics, sound, and design. I must admit, we greatly underestimated the importance of design, as is evident now, and that oversight was a mistake. That said, I remain proud of The Lightning Demo—finishing a project is no small feat, and not everyone achieves that. With time and maturity, we’ve gained a deeper understanding of the kind of impact we aspire to create.

STS: What miracle made you go back to ATARI coding more than 20 years later? Tell us, we want to know!

RATI: For my return to coding, I owe it all to Janek. Back in 2016, after a meetup at Mr Bee’s place, Janek developed a remake of TCB’s Colorshock demo and assured me it was easy. His words motivated me to install Hatari and Devpack, and I started coding again. In just 1 or 2 months, I had completed the first version of our 3D library, featuring some pretty fast routines. It turned out to be a lot more enjoyable and quicker than I had anticipated. Let’s be clear—there was never any plan for creating a demo. It was simply a matter of revisiting unfinished ambitions from years ago and coding for my own personal fulfillment. I suspect Janek felt the same way, and together, we pursued our passion. 

 This remake of the famous TCB’s Colorshock started it all for our comeback in the scene

Also, Mr Bee consistently organized gatherings at his home—first in Paris 13 and later in Fontainebleau—bringing friends together. These get-togethers were more about relaxing and enjoying music from artists like Prodigy and Fatboy Slim than anything else. But then Dim and Mr. Bee showed me their interview in Marco Breddin’s book, and it dawned on me that the scene was still alive and thriving. Checkpoint and DHS productions left the strongest impression on me at the time, rekindling my admiration for the demoscene. Since then, I’ve been blown away by several other creations, particularly Motus from SMFX, which remains my favorite demo to date.

 Typical gathering at Mr Bee’s place. 

Janek: The initial spark for the project came after a party at Mr Bee's place. We wanted to revisit/enhance/optimize some of the techniques we had applied nearly 30 years ago. So, we embarked on a journey of exploration. RATI and I exchanged ideas endlessly around new algorithms, constantly evaluating potential, testing concepts, refining results, and making decisions. Collaborative work yields far greater outcomes than isolated or individual efforts, as it harnesses diverse perspectives.

As our curiosity grew, we turned our attention to recent demos from the new scene. To our surprise, the scene was thriving—it felt worlds away from where we had been, and the level of activity was genuinely shocking. After months of effort, we amassed a solid collection of effects, created solely for our own understanding. It didn’t take long for Mr Bee to convince RATI to take things further. RATI reflected on the possibilities and eventually assembled the team that would create FirST Love. I was surprised. I knew how demanding it is to produce a high-quality demo—not to mention the time commitment involved. But who can resist RATI’s enthusiasm? No one.

Left to Right: Silver (later renamed himself as Janek when joining Overlanders) and Dim at Mr Bee’s place 2022

STS: I am clearly impressed when oldschool sceners (no offence meant of course) come back to life and release such amazing prods. What is your secret?

RATI: You know, back in the old days, there was a certain pressure to be the first to release a groundbreaking effect. For example, Ziggy, M-Coder, and Algernon launched their incredible Mega Tridi demo in quite a hurry. Nowadays, that sense of urgency has faded, and the approach feels more deliberate. I’m particularly proud that 95% of FirST Love was developed using methods reminiscent of those earlier days—leveraging VSC as a code editor, assembling and debugging in Devpack/MonST, and testing in Hatari. However, we also embraced modernity through Mr Bee’s enhanced toolchain, which greatly streamlined development, along with Tat’s hrdb added to our toolkit. Let’s be honest—creating advanced routines today is far easier thanks to the tools available compared to the late '80s and early '90s. Ziggy’s fullscreen interruption remains nothing short of miraculous—a true testament to his exceptional skills, and that was just one of his many talents.

Janek: I believe the key to our success lies in our mindset. At its core, we aimed to convey a message and evoke emotion. Back in the day, the primary motivation was performance-driven, fueled by a highly competitive environment that often led to tension between crews. However, we’ve grown more mature since then. When we decided to release what would become FL, we felt no external pressure—only our own expectations. The result you see is a direct reflection of that mindset. I’d also like to emphasize what RATI mentioned about the tooling: coding on a real machine would have been a nightmare—too slow and inconvenient. I’m convinced FL would never have come to life without the dedication of those who created emulators like Hatari (kudos to Mr Styckx). Beyond utilizing Mr Bee's toolchain, we developed additional tools, including a GIMP plug-in and Java/Python utilities for testing algorithms. It significantly accelerated our development process. 

STS : What about your current setting, do you still own the machine or only work from emulators ?

RATI: I proudly own a 1040 STf and a 4096 STe, both lovingly packed and stored just beneath my bed. I also have a zeST (shoutout to Zerkman!). My testing workflow typically begins with Hatari, followed by trials on the zeST, and finally on the actual hardware. Our shifterscroll implementation, based on Troed/Ijor’s technique, was almost entirely developed on real hardware due to Hatari's current limitations in supporting this feature. I shared a test program with Mr. Styckx, and I’m confident—as always—that he’ll deliver exceptional updates for the next version of Hatari. For all other effects, the process is streamlined using tools like VSC, vasm, Hatari, and hrdb.

 Developing the first version of the shifterscroll (Ijor/Troed’s technique) during Gemtos 2024: Adso, Vretrocomputing, RATI, Zerkman

Janek: Testing on real hardware is essential for the final phase. A good example of this can be found in the final scroll text of FL: when using the Hatari emulator, we were able to load from a floppy disk while displaying a fullscreen image—something that is simply not possible on actual hardware. It’s worth noting that Hatari has since addressed this issue. Personally, I have an STe with 4 MB of RAM, an STf with 1 MB of RAM, and even a Mega STe, which was generously gifted to us by a passionate individual who believed it would be more useful to us than to him. Thank you, ST Cooper, for your incredible generosity!

 The megaSTE ST Cooper gave us to fix some troubles with our Little -ME- Demo. That will happen buddy ;-)

STS: Can you tell some funny stories or secrets behind the creation of FirST Love as I seem to remember this was a long term project spread over at least 4 years?

RATI: FirST Love actually reuses effects that were created over the four years leading up to its release. Its core development consisted of 11 months of intense effort, working closely with Mic to design a cohesive storyboard and seamlessly integrate the effects developed in previous years. Here’s the 4th version of the storyboard. There’s been many iterations.

FirST Love Storyboard v4 

The development of these effects was incredibly sporadic, with long stretches of complete inactivity lasting several months. It was treated as more of a hobby, with other priorities consistently taking precedence. I’m attaching a screenshot of our GitLab commits so you can see how the progress unfolded across all our releases since 2019.

 Gitlab commits

You asked for a funny story—so why stop at one? I'll share two with you!

• When we had completed the first six parts of FirST Love (up to the texture mapping), we shifted our focus to developing the kernel and managing the floppy disk system. Everything seemed to work perfectly when we assembled the parts—except for the 6th section. I remember being on a late-night call with Mic at 1:00 AM, explaining how I couldn’t pinpoint the issue. Each individual part functioned flawlessly on its own, but when integrated into the disk, the 6th part kept failing. I was utterly devastated. Mic, however, remained calm and assured me that these kinds of setbacks were common. The following day, I managed to isolate the problem—it turned out to be a corruption of the kernel in low memory.
• In August, while I was on vacation in Chamonix, I sent the final version of the demo to Grey/Mystic Bytes for the Silly Venture party. I remember his excitement—it was clear he was thrilled with the result (hi Michal!). However, a few days later, he informed me that the demo wasn’t running properly on AdamK^Lamers’ compo machine. The issue was perplexing, as the bug appeared quickly but at varying moments. Janek and I found ourselves desperate once again. We revisited the timing of the FDC routines and adjusted the loading sequences, only to discover that the problem stemmed from AdamK’s CosmosEx device, which was causing interference and corrupting data when read from the floppy drive. 

Janek: You asked for an anecdote, so here's one: I followed the SV2020+1 SV Edition from an unusual location—the restroom! I was on vacation, and with my wife and daughters sleeping, it was the only quiet spot I could find.

I believe that what made us successful is that we shared a collective sense of patience, dedication, confidence in our abilities, mutual support, attentiveness, and an unwavering willingness to rework and refine. And the result is mind-blowing — we even received a Meteoriks Award, which is the ultimate prize for demosceners.

 2022 Best Midschool Production Meteoriks Award for FirST Love

STS: Was it hard to get Jess back on board?

RATI: Yes, because Jess is such a pain in the arse with his big ego... Just kidding, of course! Jess is an absolutely wonderful person. It took him mere seconds to decide to join this project, and working with him was an absolute pleasure. In fact, I even had to slow him down at times—that’s the curse of being an artist, I suppose, always brimming with ideas and eager to bring them all to life immediately. The challenge with this project was that Jess was the last one to contribute to each scene, as he had to synchronize his music perfectly with every single effect (rather than the effects being tailored to the music). But wow, did it make all the difference! I vividly remember the moment he sent us the tune for the credits section—his very first composition for the demo. In his message, he said I would be pleased, but I was utterly stunned. The music elevated the scene into something entirely beyond what we had created, and this transformation occurred for every single segment of the project. 

It was also such a joy to watch my six-year-old daughter dancing on the bed to Jess’s tunes. I filmed her and shared the video with Jess, which felt like a beautiful testament to the power of art that spans generations. 😊

Janek: When the idea of creating a trackmo surfaced, we knew that we would need a very talented musician. And what better choice than Jess who’s OVR’s musician to take the job? Only someone deeply passionate about the YM-2149 could take on such an ambitious project three decades later. 

 Left to Right: Adso and Jess missing an opportunity to develop a new screen ;-)

STS: With your latest release, that great PONG cracktro, you managed to get another old timer OVR member back into activity namely Doclands. It seems that you are going to reactivate the full band or is it a mere coincidence?

RATI: In my opinion, Doclands' revival as a chiptuner can largely be credited to Jess’s influence. A few months ago, Doclands shared some new tunes he had composed using Arkos Tracker 3. To support him, I developed a few tools so he could play them on the Atari ST. Then Jess mentioned the idea of releasing a music disk for his tunes, and I realized this could be the perfect opportunity to create something simple for the ‘Fantasy Cracktro Challenge’ recently announced by Tom (hi, Tom!). With that in mind, I reached out to Mic and Janek, and we decided to craft this little piece together. Personally, I’d love to see fresh productions from Ben, Dim, and Adso, as well as a more ambitious project from Mr Bee.

 Left to Right: Doclands, Vretrocomputing, Adso

Janek: Reactivating all OVR members is an unrealistic goal. At best, we can reconnect with some of them—and that alone feels rewarding, as we shared a deep bond and great friendships in the past. Mr Bee often brought us together by hosting parties at his place, creating memorable moments. Some OVR members—Mr. Bee, RATI, Dim, Jess, Adso, and Doclands—alongside other ST crews such as Oxygene, Legacy, Sector One, Undead, FMC Connexion and FrenchTouch, remain part of this vibrant network. Recently, Doclands started exploring Arkos Tracker and composed several tunes, which he shared in the OVR channel. This led to the decision to feature one of his tracks in the demoscene through the cracktro challenge. I suspect that Doclands’ motivation closely mirrors the excitement RATI and I felt back in 2016—discovering how modern tools could be harnessed to enhance the potential of the Atari ST.

STS: Not being a coder I cannot judge your skills with a neat eye but your code almost look like magic at times. You manage to code things that others did not and you even add style and great gfx courtesy of pixel master Mic. Do you think you have reached your max ?

RATI: Indeed, it’s challenging for a non-coder to truly grasp the intricacies of programming. The “magic” you mentioned is one of the highest compliments a coder can receive, so thank you for that! Personally, I’m always chasing those precious cycles I can save wherever they matter most. For me, the ultimate goal is creating an impact. In that regard, I hold immense admiration for tIn^Newline, Troed^Sync, and LJBK, who have pioneered entirely new techniques—I absolutely love that level of innovation. I also deeply respect the coding prowess of lsl/Defjam^Checkpoint, who, in my eyes, is undoubtedly an elite coder.

As for “reaching the max,” I’m not sure what that truly means. Every time I work on a production, I give my utmost to ensure it aligns with the expectations I’ve set for it. 

Janek: What makes the Atari ST demoscene fascinating is that we all work with the same machine, bound by its power constraints. This unique context allows us to directly compare the performance of our routines. The more optimized your routine, the more effects you can produce—it’s a simple truth. You mentioned that, as a non-coder, you might not feel what's happening behind the scenes in the same way you do when listening to music or admiring a picture. However, the creative process is remarkably similar. Whether crafting a picture, composing music, or writing code, you continuously find ways to refine and improve until you reach satisfaction. Of course, coding is far more abstract than visual art or music. Yet, a coder can vividly visualize their work, much like an artist sees their canvas or a composer hears their melodies. This requires mastery of instruction cycles, algorithms, and other technical skills—just as a graphic artist carefully selects and blends colors on their palette. Ultimately, the performance you see reflects this meticulous and iterative approach—a pursuit of both quality and efficiency. It’s this commitment to excellence that defines our work and meets our high standards.

 Left to Right: Zerkman developing zeST. Janek and Mr Bee coding sound stuff at SV21WE

STS: Can we expect unseen before fx still lying in a cardbox ?

RATI: We actually have some unreleased effects, coded long ago (before FL), sitting in our Git repository. Some of them haven’t been seen at all, while others have been shown but not used the way we envision. I’m not sure when we’ll use them — definitely not anytime soon — but they deserve to be put to good use. Time will tell.

Janek: What I admire most about demosceners, regardless of the demo scene, is the sheer imagination their craft demands. This isn’t a task you can tackle alone—it’s through observing, exchanging ideas, and collaborating that, eventually, a truly original concept emerges, sparking something new and extraordinary. That moment of inspiration hasn’t yet come for those unused effects we’ve been holding onto.

STS: What about the use of AI in demos?

RATI: There seems to be a big debate about this in the scene, with many graphic artists and musicians weighing in. Honestly, I didn’t feel too concerned at first, being a coder. But then I started thinking — how would I feel if AI could generate beautiful code inspired by the work of many others, including mine? I guess my respect for those coders would take a real hit. I admire those who put in the effort and go through the struggle to craft a proper effect. And I can imagine this becoming reality one day. When that happens, I’ll definitely stop coding — that’s for sure. 

Janek: That's an important question. While generating routine AI is already a reality, is it as optimized as what humans can achieve? I don’t think so—not yet, at least. In the music domain, particularly for the YM-2149, Jess would undoubtedly provide far greater insights, but I suspect AI cannot yet reach the same level of intricacy and creativity that Jess brings. When it comes to graphic design, however, the story feels entirely different. Creating an impressive picture for the Atari ST, given the machine’s constraints, is a significant challenge for any graphic artist. That said, AI can be an enabler for certain groups who lack access to a talented graphic artist. In such cases, AI becomes a viable alternative, provided it is transparently credited in the demo.

 Non-AI art from Mic extracted from FirST Love

STS: Now it seems that one or the two of you have shown up at some conventions, at least the GEMTOS. Do you plan to attend more conventions or was it a happy opportunity ?

RATI: It really depends on the circumstances. I do enjoy meeting other Atari enthusiasts, but it needs to happen at the right moment and in a location that’s easy to reach.

 Left to Right: Mr Bee, RATI, Janek when in Gdansk at SV2021WE

Janek: Since the release of FL, I’ve only attended one Atari convention—the Silly Venture Winter Edition 2021. RATI went to GEMTOS 2023/2024 and enjoyed it, which is why this year I’ve decided to join him and other OVR members at the event. The atmosphere at these conventions feels vastly different from what we experienced in the late ‘80s and early ‘90s. At Silly Venture 2021 in Gdańsk, I was amazed by the sheer passion of the attendees. It was incredible to see how deeply they understand and dedicate themselves to their beloved machines. Their knowledge and commitment are truly impressive. One of the great advantages of physically attending a convention is the rich level of interaction and exchange it fosters. Depending on the context and opportunities, we may choose to attend other conventions as well—without any preconceived notions.

 OVR’s version of the famous Snowman demo at SV2021 Winter Edition: RATI, Mr Bee, Janek

STS: What do you think about the demoscene being recognized as an immaterial form of art in France finally?

RATI: I believe it’s a fair decision, as the demoscene shares many characteristics with traditional forms of art. It’s a medium through which we convey emotions to an audience. It’s the result of collaboration between talented people — graphic artists, musicians, designers, and programmers. It’s very close to what cinema is — and cinema is considered an art form. Kudos to everyone who worked to have our craft recognized as such in France, including you, Sébastien. 

Janek: A year ago, during the “European Heritage Days,” I visited the magnificent “Richelieu Library,” a remarkable place dedicated to preserving works of art. While there, I had an engaging conversation with the guide about the “demoscene,” which has been recognized as an art form in countries like Sweden and Finland. Although the guide was unfamiliar with this recognition, they mentioned that if the demoscene were officially acknowledged as an art form, its works could be archived in these prestigious rooms. It’s clear that what the demoscene produces is undeniably art. Audiences evaluate these creations much like they would a piece of music or a movie—considering the message, artistic design, staging, sound design, and more. I’m genuinely delighted to see this art form receiving the recognition it so rightfully deserves.

STS: Last words belong to you, anything you want to shout out to this world ? Then go ahead !

RATI: Thanks so much for conducting this interview, Sébastien. I’d like to share a few messages:

• Mic: Hey Michel, you still owe us a t-shirt—don’t think we’ve forgotten! :D No pressure, though. Chef’s kiss to you, matey. :x
• All ST Sceners in Paris (crack or demo): Let’s try to organize a meetup, everyone. It could be a lot of fun!
• Marten Range: I’m currently on the 68k side of the force, but I really admire your work. Who knows, I might dive back into it one day — I even coded some vertex and fragment shaders back in 2013!

Janek: Curiosity is our greatest driving force. Embrace the urge to explore, and discover—whether in the physical world or through the boundless landscape of the mind. This isn’t just about coding; it can take any form, like writing, traveling, or connecting with others. A passion is a gift, a spark that makes life vibrant. Treasure it, and let it guide you. Enjoy the adventure!

 The french ST demoscene salutes you! 

Left to Right: Vretrocomputing, Ben, Janek, Fenarinarsa, RATI, Gunstick, Mr Bee, Zerkman